This is the irc logfile for the 5th General Assembly of the Foswiki Association e.V. Date: 2014-05-17 Begin: 14:00 UTC End: 15:50 UTC Timestamps below are UTC+2 Freenode, #foswiki-association The log was edited by Oliver Krueger. EMail addresses have been stripped off. [16:00] So, we have hit 14:00 UTC; do we have a quorum (Oliver, the cheque is in the post) [16:01] Even if only one person is present, we have a quorum. [16:01] Afternoon [16:01] mtempest_ joined the channel [16:01] Hi Julian [16:02] Hi Michael. [16:02] Hello [16:02] Franz J. Gigler cannot make it and asked me to represent him. [16:03] Lynnwood said he may be late, but is trying hard to be here. Until then, I'll represent him. [16:04] Who wants to take minutes? [16:04] Always the one who asks? ;) [16:04] My session is logging ... [16:04] (I hope ... checking now0 [16:05] I also use a bouncer, so everything is logged. [16:05] I guess, this will be a short GA. So I can do it. [16:05] andreli joined the channel [16:05] Hi Andre. [16:06] OliverKrueger: I'm now a fully paid up member :-) [16:06] Hello all [16:06] Agenda is in http://foswiki.org/Community/AgendaFifthGeneralAssembly [16:07] OliverKrueger sticks a star sticker on CDots chest. [16:07] Adhesive or with a nice pointy pin? [16:07] people on this list have voting rights ... http://foswiki.org/Community/CurrentFoswikiMembers [16:07] gac410: don't burst my bubble [16:07] CDot1: May I ask you to take the lead for this GA? [16:08] OliverKrueger: sure; I was prepared to [16:08] OK, let's begin. CDot1 in the chair, gac410 as minute taker [16:08] Officially we need a board decision to "degrade" a membership, so everybody on that list has voting rights. [16:09] er... Is OliverKrueger or gac410 the minute taker? [16:09] OK, there is a quorum. Are there any other representations to be declared? [16:09] I can do it, but if you want to help, I created a pad: https://public.pad.fsfe.org/p/foswiki_5th_ga [16:09] gac410: (15:04:47) gac410: My session is logging ...# [16:10] which I take as "I'm doing the minutes" [16:10] Franz J Gigler is represented by me. [16:10] forgive me if I jumped the gun [16:10] okay. (10:05:10 AM) OliverKrueger: I guess, this will be a short GA. So I can do it. [16:10] Redundancy rules. [16:11] I am representing Lynnwwod until he shows up. So, next business, appointment of vote counters. [16:11] As long as only one of us is editing the topic. ... Okay. Rather than try to take minutes live, I'll craft the logs into the minutes after we adjourn. [16:11] Volunteers, please? [16:11] I can count [16:11] gac410: me too [16:11] I can count, too. [16:12] so, we have to have a vote for vote counters? Quickest to step down gets to not do it.... [16:12] Lynnwood joined the channel [16:12] hi Lynnwood, welcome [16:12] greetings [16:12] just made it in [16:12] excellent. hi there. [16:13] so keen. Alright, first two to volunteer - MichaelDaum and OliverKrueger - are our vote counters. [16:13] our email addrs in the minutes? [16:13] CDot1: no [16:14] wait - did OliverKrueger actually volunteer? I'm not sure now [16:14] I take minutes. [16:14] I thought this was on a different topic, yes. [16:14] CDot1 was confused by the stream [16:14] Markus and Michael D [16:14] OK. [16:14] ok, thanks. Markus and MD it is. [16:14] right [16:14] I will strip email addresses from the log and the minutes. [16:15] Thanks Oliver. Right, Induction of new members. Do we have any proposals for new members? [16:15] jomo: still dont want to join? ;) [16:15] nah… thank you ;) [16:15] Baer_? [16:16] CDot1 is surprised that jast and ModAcOst are both absent..... [16:16] I asked them if they wanna join right after the camp. They tend to leave that job to Alexander Stoffel. [16:16] gac410 figured this might bring Sven and Babar out of the shadows too. [16:16] OK, s'fair. So, no new members. [16:17] Moving on, Election of the board of directors. We have 3 slots to fill [16:17] What happens if we can't fill them? [16:17] OliverKrueger, GeorgeClark and CrawfordCurrie are all standing down. [16:17] uebera||: let's cross that bridge when we come to it [16:18] Good idea. [16:18] presently we have two nomnations, George, and Lynnwood [16:18] I propose Markus Ueberall. :) [16:18] jast is not here ... let's nominate him [16:18] that should have been done before the meeting, so he could cross himself off if not prepared to stand [16:18] CDot1 has explicitly invited jast on IRC [16:19] Neither Oliver nor Crawford wishes to stand for re-election. [16:20] so we need one more person to stand for director. [16:20] so, do we have anyone else from the attendees who wishes to put themselves forward to fill the last board slot? It's not an onerous task. [16:20] I'm willing [16:20] cool. [16:21] thank you JulianLevens. Anyone else? [16:21] Who are the incumbents other than the three of us? [16:21] Thanks JulianLevens [16:21] Julian thanks [16:21] I would be willing but I havent been active enough to warrent it [16:21] warrant even [16:21] didn't stop me [16:22] Activity is not a prerequsitie. The role is more just to be there as a guarantee against a hostile takeover [16:22] You can work hard to make up for it. As long as you're dedicated, why notß [16:22] s /ß/?/ [16:22] and not to try to steer or direct the project [16:23] I'll put myself forward so [16:23] Thanks Padraig. :) [16:23] what? this isn’t a stepping stone be “beneficent dictator for life”? I’ve been misled [16:23] gac410: sorry, board members not standing down this time are MichaelDaum and PaulHarvey [16:23] Okay thanks CDot1 [16:23] Lynnwood: benevolent chicken-keeper for life, maybe [16:24] oh ok [16:24] lol [16:24] i got my peeps right here... [16:24] right, if there are no more proposals from the floor, we have: [16:24] GeorgeCLark - previous and good board member and great all-round guy [16:25] LynnwoodBrown - check-keeper supreme, and long-standing member of the FA of good standing [16:25] mtempest_ quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) [16:25] Question: If OliverKrueger is not on the board any more, wouldn't it be wise to ask before the vote who want to be treasurer? [16:25] PadraigLennon - dodgy Irish bloke who is known to be dangerously reliable [16:26] thanks. I think... [16:26] andreli: that's for the elected board to decide, but yes, anyone up for election may be appointed treasurer [16:26] The treasurer needs to be in Germany? [16:26] mtempest_ joined the channel [16:26] and JulianLevens, well known in Dutch criminal circles and developer of excellent reputation [16:26] It makes things easier. [16:27] OliverKrueger: does the bank account require a German citizen to front it? [16:27] maybe yes. [16:28] If Michael does not want to fill that role, I'd be happy to relay on that position. [16:28] so, MichaelDaum, it may have to be you, unless you can recruit a fellow countryman..... [16:28] OliverKrueger: many thanks for the offer [16:28] I really don't want to step into that role [16:28] gac410 has no interest at all in dealing with cross-border finances [16:29] understood. As I said, it's for the board to work that one out, though we can of course recommend. [16:29] are all nominees listed online on f.o? [16:29] MichaelDaum: not unless you edited while i wasn't looking [16:29] currently only on the pad. But I can add them to a topic, if you like. [16:29] JulianLevens is not on http://foswiki.org/Community/AgendaFifthGeneralAssembly [16:30] yes please, make the list visual on f.o [16:30] Please dont edit the Agenda. [16:30] can someone please add Julian and Padraig to the Agneda topic - section V - and remove Oliver and I? [16:30] OliverKrueger: why not edit? [16:30] ... including CDot's taglines [16:30] I will create a Minute Topic. [16:31] oh, ok, so, Oliver's minutes topic will contain the list of nominees. [16:31] http://foswiki.org/Community/FifthGeneralAssemblyMinutes [16:31] I wanted to create it afterwards, but here you go. [16:32] So, the procedure is for attending members to email their votes to the vote counters (Michael and Markus) [16:32] you vote for three people out of the four nominees [16:32] Everybody has three votes, correct? [16:32] correct [16:33] Please post the email addresses [16:33] Can you repeat your preferred email addresses please? :) [16:33] Baer_ quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) [16:33] My email address: [16:33] mine is [16:34] Okay ... so send email now listing 3 names? [16:34] thank you. OK, voting is open; remember, nominees are GC, LB, PL and JL [16:35] voted [16:35] votes [16:35] s/s/d [16:35] Lynnwood voted [16:36] OliverKrueger voted [16:36] padraig_lennon voted [16:36] uebera|| voted [16:36] gac410 recalls - last time he sent a pseudo regex like that it crashed someone's IRC client. Can't recall who now [16:37] ! [16:37] voted [16:37] voted [16:37] Voted [16:38] uebera||: MichaelDaum: don't forget to send your votes to eachother (and don't forget what you voted!) [16:38] CDot1, how do you know I nearly forgot [16:39] :-) [16:39] OliverKrueger voted a second time for this representation. [16:40] subst("this", "his") [16:40] JulianLevens1 joined the channel [16:42] I got 10 mails. Anyone who's still sending his/her vote? [16:42] JulianLevens quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [16:42] Ok, now it's 11. [16:42] OliverKrueger: It was you who had their client killed by a pseud-regex [16:43] gac410: not sure. [16:43] there should be 10 [16:44] plus one repres.? [16:44] erm, total of 10. Please ignore any non-member who voted. [16:44] I've got 10 votes. including Oliver's two. [16:45] Did you get uebera||'s [16:45] Just a moment. Michael, do you count your own mail? [16:46] yes I've got all 10 votes incl mine. [16:46] Ok, then I have to check who's the non-member, sorry... [16:46] ah now reseived Markus' second vote? [16:48] Everything there? Can you start counting? [16:49] mtempest_ quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) [16:50] vote counters, please cross reference eachothers' counts and report when you are ready. [16:50] 11 votes .. just got complicated, Who needed to remove socks [16:51] mtempest_ joined the channel [16:52] CDot1 isn't wearing socks, so can't help [16:54] Lynnwood: Did you send your mail to both of us? [16:54] oh sorry, i didn’t [16:54] just a sec [16:55] ok done [16:57] uebera||, ok numbers match [16:57] uebera|| is relieved. [16:57] that was hard work [16:58] ;) [16:58] Can we have the votes from the German jury please? [16:59] MichaelDaum: please, go ahead. [16:59] Lynnwood: 11, Padraig: 2, Julian: 10, George: 10 [16:59] OK, thank you, we have our new board. Congratulations to all new members, and repeat offenders! [16:59] gac410 didn't keep his head low enought he guesses :) [17:00] OliverKrueger claps. [17:00] congrats [17:00] Congratulations! [17:00] Thanks to you folks who have been serving [17:00] well done guys [17:00] thanks all [17:00] and congrats too [17:00] Next business is the financial report. OliverKrueger? [17:00] congrats [17:00] yep. That might be a short one. [17:01] http://foswiki.org/Community/Finance/FinancialStatement2013 [17:01] Nicely presented [17:02] As you can see, only membership fees went in and two kind of expenditures went out. [17:02] First the bank account fees (about 25€/year). [17:02] And then the tax advisor with about 240€/year. [17:03] Currently we can still cover the costs. [17:03] But many members are not paying their fee. [17:03] see http://foswiki.org/Community/CurrentFoswikiMembers [17:03] is there a legal requirement for audit? [17:03] My opinion: expenses are far to high. [17:04] some membership payments are < 10.00 € ... why? [17:04] Yes, we have to let the tax advisor do his job if we want to remain our non profit status. [17:04] I already deducted the Paypal fee. [17:05] gac410 doesn't understand German law I guess, but here, for a non-profit, we just send in a postcard each year, no advisor needed. [17:05] Unless assets are above some threshold [17:06] Comments are minuted and noted. Auditor(s), may we have your report please? [17:06] padraig_lennon: that's you, Padraig :-) [17:06] uebera|| has a book about german association law ("Vereinsrecht"), but never found time to read it. I guess this is the only position where we could save money (if possible). [17:06] Oliver has done an excellent job on managing this. As he said above its been a pretty easy job this year [17:06] yes indeed. Thanks OliverKrueger! [17:07] We don't know those kind of 'non profit' expenses here too. [17:07] Everything adds up for 2013. A minor question about the 2012 which Oliver is going to follow up on but I'm happy [17:07] As per 31.12.2013 the association had 1570.35€. [17:08] gac410 didn't see the tabs. Excellent So not in the hole. [17:08] Yes, padraig_lennon found something in the paypal history which was not in sync with our accounting in the Community.Finance web. [17:08] padraig_lennon: thank you - Oliver followed up with me on the 2012 question (if that's the one you refer to) and we're happy it is understood [17:09] at least, I am :-) [17:09] told you it was minor [17:09] padraig_lennon: We misunderstand the PP report. The numbers are fine. [17:09] misunderstood [17:10] OK, so we have to elect auditors for next year, from outside the board. [17:10] To make it simple, I am happy to volunteer as auditor for next year's accounts. [17:10] Me too. [17:10] me too. [17:11] maybe a short forecast for the numbers... [17:11] In 2014 we paid about 500€ for the room rent of the Foswiki Camp. [17:11] I can do it again if no one else minds [17:12] wow, 4 volunteers! OK, I'll back down to keep it simple [17:12] uebera|| too. [17:12] Should save us a vote. :) [17:12] Oliver if you are managing the accounts can you actually be an auditor? [17:12] OliverKrueger, is it possible for you to still be our treasurer even though you arent on the board anymore? [17:12] oh, no, sorry, I wasnt volunteering for the job. Im just fine. ^^ ;) [17:12] ok, OliverKrueger and padraig_lennon are auditors for next year - many thanks, and thank you both for your excellent efforts this FY [17:13] Im fine that CDot is doing it. :) [17:14] OliverKrueger, so thats a no? [17:14] huh? OK, I was confused by (16:10:56) OliverKrueger: me too. [17:14] CDot1: misunderstanding, sry [17:14] MichaelDaum: thats a no. [17:14] right, so auditors are padraig_lennon and myself. [17:14] It wouldnt be wise as padraig said, if I still play a role as a relay. [17:15] moving on.... there are no proposals for byelaws from members [17:15] We still need to ask the new board if they accept their election. [17:15] Accepted [17:16] OliverKrueger: I thought that was a given, as they accepted nomination, but ok..... [17:16] for the record: Yes i accept. :-) [17:16] JulianLevens1: ping? [17:17] Yes I accept [17:17] great. [17:17] And we have to ask the GA to exonerate the former board. [17:17] excellent; thanks. [17:17] uebera|| claps [17:17] So, Review of current task teams [17:17] CDot1: ^^ [17:17] for the record: the board will have to elect a new treasurer and chairman [17:17] lordy. Ok, let's do this by the book [17:18] So noted MichaelDaum [17:18] Are there any further questions regarding the financial stuff? [17:18] not from me [17:18] Then I kindly ask the GA to exonerate the board. [17:19] is the former board exonerated by the GA? Show of hands, please, in the form of a *clap* or a "Sir, I must protest" as appropriate [17:19] we can elect chairman and treasurer by email among board members. not required right now. [17:19] clap [17:19] clap [17:19] clap [17:19] clap [17:19] clap [17:19] clap [17:19] clap [17:19] clap [17:19] clap [17:19] jomo quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [17:19] clap [17:19] MichaelDaum: correct [17:20] thank you - 2013-14 board is exonerated. [17:20] OliverKrueger: ok to move on now? [17:20] please. ;) [17:20] (16:17:20) CDot1: So, Review of current task teams [17:20] 2nd - postpone treasurer/chair to email. It's 1:20 now [17:20] http://foswiki.org/Community/TaskTeam [17:21] gac410: y, no worries, it's board business and not GA anyway [17:21] Yes * was "seconding" the suggestion to postpone. [17:21] jomo joined the channel [17:21] notably active task teams this year have been: infra, security, release [17:22] managing task teams seems to need quite a bit of cleanup in two respects [17:22] as far as I have seen, all have done excellent and essential work [17:22] We have several pending issues ... Really need infrastructure, and Translation to resolve some stuff. [17:22] (1) ask people whether they still want to be on the task team [17:22] (2) review stalled tasks of each team [17:23] there are a few people still listed that unfortunately have left the project it seems [17:24] I'll take actions to ping leaders of each task team to review their stuff [17:24] thanks. [17:24] if we still want to drive the idea of task teams we need to clean up the picture for new people coming in [17:24] no good to have cruft lingering around for years [17:24] everybody else: help gardening this thing [17:24] yes. and make some progress on some long standing issues / stalled tasks. [17:25] If we have tasks assigned to teams can we not email automatically every month/quarter to remind people in teams of o/s work [17:25] better close a stale task than leave it open w/o actions [17:25] there are some important leadership issues on the critical infra and security teams that must be resolved [17:25] Translation / pootle is dead. Git migration is stalled we really need this fixed before we branch 1.2 [17:27] gac410 nominates CDot as new lead for Security team [17:27] we know there are problems with the task teams as written. the agendum was asking "are task teams the right way to run the project"? [17:27] Ah. [17:27] details of who/what are in the task teams is beyond the scope of this meeting [17:28] please keep pushing each task. if there is a decision to make: announce a vote, a deadline and call it a done job migrating to git. there might be some technical aspects unresolved we dont have to solve all upfront, imho. [17:28] what the GA can do is to say to the board "please help lead us to clean up the mess" [17:28] We need some level of focus on at least 3 of the teams. Infra, Security and Translation (more part of infra?) need some dedicated effort. [17:29] Security clearly needs a focused / ready to react group. +1 to CDot for his rapid / professional response so far. [17:29] so, the question before the GA is "do we want to continue with task teams" and if not, "is there an alternative we want to push" [17:29] that is the question in my mind: if not some form of task team, what do you envision? [17:29] I agree with gac410 that some teams are crucial, so we need task teams in some key areas [17:29] personally I think it is not so much an issue of the teams, as the participation of the members [17:29] CDot1, there are some task teams that fulfill a continual and important role. some not so much, e.g. wysiwyg. [17:30] right [17:30] Given that Security and Infra each need privileges beyond normal wiki access, I can't imagine how else to organize. In any other name it's just wordsmithing. [17:30] yup [17:30] *1 [17:30] +1 [17:31] as far as I see all task teams except wysiwyg make total sense [17:31] infrastructure and security. Release tends to be a self-organising event [17:31] it happens under the leadership of the release manager, and has a moving choir of participants [17:31] y. only big need for release is decisions on dates / deadlines / contents. [17:31] Are we folding translation into infrastructure [17:31] JulianLevens1: that sounds sensible to me. [17:31] translation into release [17:32] hmmm [17:32] it has two parts - the translation infrastructure, and the actual act of translation [17:32] infra is setting up a poodle alternative. release team to kick translaters. [17:32] +1, though I am mono-lingual ... There are two aspects. Infrastructure. Pootle is dead, I'm proposing Weblate. And Release (Translation for the new release, ) [17:32] the first is infra, the second (arguably) release [17:32] CDot1, +1 [17:32] CDot1 could envision auto-generated tasks that highjlight untranslated texts [17:32] wysiwyg should become UserExperience imho. Michael has done a great job on that but it needs to have a broader remit. [17:32] two parts: exactly [17:33] I think we can kill off Translation. subsume into Infra and Release [17:33] gac410, +1 [17:33] +1 [17:33] Each language has a separate dev. lead to make decisions on wording, [17:33] wysiwyg can go too. thats infact a too narrow scope for two things: editor and overal ux [17:33] I am nominal lead of Wysiwyg, but frankly I don't have the energy to drive it ahead as it needs to be [17:34] so I'm happy to close it [17:34] I'd be happy to lead working on the editor [17:34] close Wysiwyg +1 [17:34] We desperately need some energy there. And I18N is another languishing effort. [17:35] jomo wondering about where is an “list of task teams”… [17:35] http://foswiki.org/Community/TaskTeam [17:35] ty [17:35] I18N was the subject of much discussion at the FoswikiCamp [17:35] yw [17:35] asks what is more important - I18N or UX? [17:35] UX [17:35] apples are more important than oranges [17:35] we felt that technically, it is a monstrous task with little evidence of a long term benefit (I18N) [17:36] jomo - i18n (if its mean unicode core ) ;) [17:36] if someone really wanted I18N, then they would pay for (at least some of) it [17:36] jomo: yes, unicode core. [17:36] Well let's not distract things now. 1.2 needs to get out before any ux / i18n work starts [17:36] or just do it as part of a paid project and donate things to the project [17:37] gac410, darn true [17:37] It seems to me any development related 'task' is naturally lead whenever someone actually takes the lead, even if only for a season [17:37] Is it possible to include the latest TinyMCE in 1.2? [17:37] yes. Task teams exist - they emerge, and they fade, but we're terrible at communicating that [17:37] much effort I mean [17:37] padraig_lennon: 1.3 maybe [17:38] I'd say too late for any big change in 1.2 [17:38] padraig_lennon: we should discuss details after the GA in #foswiki. [17:38] So to bring things around .... two remaining teams [17:38] - Infra - picks up backend for translation [17:38] - Security - as is, review members [17:38] JulianLevens1, yes thats what I prefer too: as few overhead as possible. however I miss discussions like these right now (release meetings) [17:38] yup, I'm happy with that. [17:38] gac410 wonders if we should have bi-weekly release meetings to drive forward a 1.2 [17:38] amazing what a modest about of group rhythm (i.e. scheduled meetings) can do for communication… [17:39] so I'd like to propose to bring back regular release meetings ... as long as they dont have city names [17:39] one thing we might consider for the coming year is to explore the idea of other camps [17:39] be it physical, or online, or just special-purpose groups that get together for a week of activities [17:39] +1 [17:39] +1 on meetings. We need more than meetings of 2 ... which is what the majority of the ongoing city meetings seem to have. [17:39] +1 [17:39] I'd support *regular* release meetings. [17:40] gac410, would you like to announce a first release meeting with a tiny agenda focusing on open tasks for 1.2 and yadda? [17:40] How did this time work for everyone? opinions on when to have, Or should the times roll around a bit? [17:40] okay ... lets table. [17:40] we had an excellent meeting in Amsterdam (many thanks to Julian) and I'd like more like it. [17:40] CDot1: Glad you asked about Camps, I'll be in the UK around 1st week November :) [17:40] gac410 will take initiative to propose a release meeting schedule. [17:41] +1 [17:41] :-) [17:41] +1 [17:41] CDot1, definitely. Comming together in 3d is really a boost. [17:41] So did we decide? two task teams remain, Infra and Security. [17:41] gac410: Please no activities on weekends. [17:41] infra, sec, release ... makes 3 ... I am a counter ;) [17:41] andreli: that's a hard one - some people only have time at weekends [17:42] CDot1: Yea, and for some foswiki is business [17:42] andreli: so we need to schedule as sympathetically as possible. Noted. [17:42] I'll send an email announcing a plan for meetings, with a poll for best times. Let the participants decide. [17:42] gac410, excellent [17:43] CDot1 uses google calendar for such things; a Foswiki calendar sounds like a very handy way to do this. [17:43] foswiki google calendar, that is [17:43] +1 on the calendar [17:43] coming back to task teams: do we have a decision? [17:43] Time check: 1:43 ... 3 teams. Leaders review membership? [17:43] yup [17:43] and board drives leaders [17:44] ok, so let's move on. [17:44] Is there any other business? [17:44] wysiwyg and translation teams are closed. [17:44] AOB (Speak now, or forever hold your peace) [17:44] I dont have anything for MISC. [17:44] Can we have a show of hands on migration to GIT ... will Infra team have authority to proceed? [17:44] Do we want to go ahead and put out date for next year’s assembly? [17:45] git: clap [17:45] gac410, +1 on moving to git [17:45] please proceed [17:45] git: +1 [17:45] gac410: git is infra team's decision [17:45] git +1 [17:45] git: +1 [17:45] We were late this year. [17:45]