Release Meeting: 06 Feb 2017

(07:57:17 AM) jomo: entered the room.
(07:57:25 AM) jomo: hiall
(07:57:35 AM) gac410: hi jomo
(07:58:27 AM) JulianLevens: hi
(08:01:31 AM) gac410: Hi eveeryone Good morning from Boston ... Are we ready to get started?
(08:01:51 AM) MichaelDaum: hi guys
(08:02:06 AM) JulianLevens: Ready here
(08:02:20 AM) gac410: Okay lets get started.
(08:03:04 AM) gac410: I guess beta is going smoothly. There has been very little feedback that I've heard. One task opened for bad packaging of JEditableContrib
(08:03:25 AM) ***gac410 wishes there was some way to get specific feedback of the testing
(08:04:30 AM) gac410: I bumped https://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item14317 - Jeditable issue to urgent. Simple packaging fix, but I wish there was an actual example of usage,
(08:05:10 AM) gac410: And I bumped https://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item13785 to urgent. Extension installer failing to install files. I *hope* that I have it fixed.
(08:06:07 AM) ***MichaelDaum never used JEditableContrib
(08:07:39 AM) MichaelDaum: ah EditRowPlugin depends on it
(08:07:55 AM) gac410: Documentation is very sparse on it. Looking at the upstream docs, it seems to need a rest handler to post. Oh....
(08:08:04 AM) gac410: Somehow I missed that.
(08:08:19 AM) MichaelDaum: it still has got a bad RELEASE string
(08:09:21 AM) gac410: well it's not "bad" ... just unusual. The comparison is still on the "VERSION" and the dotted release matches the upstream JEditable source
(08:09:50 AM) MichaelDaum: I'll take over 14317
(08:10:01 AM) gac410: And upstream has not changed. Okay. Thanks
(08:11:36 AM) gac410: I'm not aware of any other issues for Beta. Has anyone heard anything?
(08:11:53 AM) gac410: Or better yet, anyone done any testing?
(08:11:58 AM) gac410: :)
(08:12:17 AM) JulianLevens: No testing here :(
(08:12:41 AM) JulianLevens: I'll try to find some time, it'll be very ad-hoc
(08:13:03 AM) gac410: ad-hoc is good too :)
(08:13:25 AM) cdot entered the room.
(08:14:33 AM) gac410: It looks like there have been 6 tasks fixed in the log. Probably enough to at least to a RC before we release.
(08:15:43 AM) gac410: Anybody have anything else on either Urgent tasks, or the Beta release?
(08:16:07 AM) JulianLevens: Nope
(08:16:46 AM) ***jomo wondering about vrurg's branch....
(08:17:11 AM) gac410: MichaelDaum: I did have a bunch of changes ready to commit for 14317. Want me to check them in.
(08:18:01 AM) MichaelDaum: gac410, I am half done with it by the time
(08:18:09 AM) gac410: but wanted input from cdot as he added that contrib. And I missed that it was used by EditRowPlugin Okay :)
(08:18:35 AM) cdot: link?
(08:18:49 AM) gac410: d https://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item14317 - Jeditable issue to urgent.
(08:19:23 AM) gac410: Just a packaging issue. debug flag in jquery looks for an .uncompressed.js, but contrib ships _src.js
(08:19:34 AM) cdot: yup
(08:20:18 AM) MichaelDaum: I wonder why there is a JEditableContribPlugin with barely anything in it.
(08:20:23 AM) MichaelDaum: pretty bogus
(08:20:29 AM) gac410: Old releases of jquery
(08:20:37 AM) MichaelDaum: I'll remove it
(08:20:39 AM) cdot: Probably just so the .js gets loaded.
(08:20:39 AM) gac410: (enable on foswiki 1.x
(08:21:11 AM) MichaelDaum: it actually is a bad one as it loads the jquery.jeditable.js to _every_ page of the wiki
(08:21:24 AM) cdot: right.
(08:21:25 AM) MichaelDaum: it should only be loaded when required
(08:21:33 AM) cdot: agreed.
(08:22:13 AM) gac410: Just don't get too aggressive in the patch fixing and introduce unintended consequences :D
(08:22:21 AM) MichaelDaum: I'll have to check EditRow whether it loads jeditable ... and does not assume it already being there
(08:23:13 AM) MichaelDaum: the packages txt file is broken too: renders a non-expanding %TOPIC% at the top
(08:23:31 AM) MichaelDaum: things like that ...
(08:23:33 AM) gac410: y I had that fixed
(08:24:39 AM) gac410: I think I fixed the extensions installer issue with not loading some extension topics. I still can't understand why it was *ever* working now that I've seen the issue
(08:25:34 AM) gac410: It assumed you could use meta->attach() on a modified meta object, and then do the save, where as attach appears to only under some cases, revert changes in the modified object.
(08:27:37 AM) cdot: it probably works because the use-case is rare
(08:28:26 AM) gac410: The thing that's strange, when it has happened, I've been totally unable to reproduce it on a non-fcgi system. .... Until I tried to fix it and actually made it worse.
(08:28:32 AM) cdot: many packaged topics have %META for the attachments already in the topic text, so a combination of circumstances made it appear to work.
(08:28:45 AM) gac410: At which point the fix was easy
(08:28:47 AM) cdot: (probably)
(08:29:12 AM) cdot: y, hardest thing is finding the problem. Fixes are often the easiest bit.
(08:30:11 AM) gac410: I did a meta->load meta->text(value) meta->attach meta->text() and the text reverted across the attach.
(08:31:12 AM) gac410: Anyway ... I think 2.1.3 is in pretty good shape now. So maybe an RC for a couple of days followed by release later this week?
(08:31:45 AM) gac410: Lets hope nothing urgent jumps out.
(08:32:58 AM) gac410: Oh. I have a question about old releases. We (I?) negelected to prepare SecurityAlert... topics for the Sev 3 security tasks in the 2.1.1 / 2.0.x releases to document that there were fixed issues.
(08:33:33 AM) gac410: So Should I go back and document the old closed security tasks in an alert for those releases, so that they pop up in our Download topics?
(08:36:31 AM) gac410: Any other input on 2.1.3 ... RC on Wednesday ... code freeze ... and Release on Friday? Sound good?
(08:37:11 AM) gac410: Okay. Feature review ...
(08:38:16 AM) gac410: https://foswiki.org/Development/ConfigurableCookieNamesAndPaths ... is implemented on master. as we needed it to coexist with the cookie changes on f.o and b.f.o
(08:39:10 AM) gac410: MichaelDaum: you commented on one of the tasks, that we should use a new jquery cookie implementation, so this is probably a good place to pick that up and try to also unify cookie access for at least all cookies generated by core.
(08:39:27 AM) MichaelDaum: true
(08:39:31 AM) MichaelDaum: but thats for 2.2
(08:39:48 AM) gac410: Yes. I just moved onto Feature review ... :D Sorry.
(08:40:07 AM) MichaelDaum: I am still afraid of touching pub/System/JavaScriptFiles/*js
(08:40:14 AM) MichaelDaum: ah got it
(08:40:33 AM) gac410: Other than me reactivating that feature, There has not been any movement yet or new features for 2.2
(08:40:45 AM) MichaelDaum: TwistyPlugin is probably the only other thing to worry about as it still uses the cookie implementation in pub/S/JS/*
(08:41:08 AM) MichaelDaum: I think we are all wainting for 2.1.3 to see the light
(08:41:28 AM) gac410: Y. and Strikeone appears to not access the cookie path. That one does it's own inline cookie processing
(08:41:40 AM) MichaelDaum: oha
(08:41:59 AM) MichaelDaum: this all predates the times when we werent sure about jquery yet
(08:42:36 AM) gac410: Also, cdot, I commented on https://foswiki.org/Development/ImproveSupportForComments Its branch seems ready to merge, though the Feature Request did make some syntax change suggestions.
(08:42:40 AM) MichaelDaum: I wished we could eliminate pub/System/JavaScriptFiles/ all together
(08:43:09 AM) cdot: MichaelDaum: +1, it's pretty horrible.
(08:43:26 AM) gac410: Y. That may be a bit excessive for a minor release. But we can certainly move core cookie access away from it and leave it around for legacy access.
(08:43:39 AM) gac410: deprecate it in 2.2
(08:43:43 AM) cdot: gac410: I never merged it because of lack of feedback
(08:43:45 AM) MichaelDaum: gac410, +1
(08:44:09 AM) cdot: yes, it predates jquery by a long mile.
(08:44:52 AM) gac410: okay ... well lets plan our Next release meeting - 20 Feb, to be focused on 2.2 features. Anyone with a FR in limbo ... please be ready to discuss/defend/champion for the 20th.
(08:45:05 AM) MichaelDaum: yay
(08:45:16 AM) MichaelDaum: new look & feel for pattern
(08:45:43 AM) MichaelDaum: FR: "make patternskin great again"
(08:45:59 AM) ***MichaelDaum hides his head
(08:46:13 AM) gac410: hm Is that a "minor" or is that a "major" ... or should we fork Pattern Into Pattern2 and allow choice -
(08:46:29 AM) MichaelDaum: pattern has got themes internally
(08:46:48 AM) gac410: Skin changes make upgrades really hard,
(08:46:50 AM) MichaelDaum: which would give us a way to add another one
(08:46:59 AM) gac410: okay ... that could work.
(08:47:43 AM) MichaelDaum: there are a couple of changes that imho are required ... but go beyond. i.e. slim down the amount of nested DIVs ...
(08:47:54 AM) gac410: I'd like to keep minor release in the category of relatively painless upgrades. Lets leave ... "you need to recustomize a new skin" for major releases.
(08:48:10 AM) MichaelDaum: okay
(08:48:49 AM) gac410: I think we have enough features pending for a "good" minor release without requiring sites to do skin development. But a new theme ... YAY
(08:49:34 AM) gac410: So ... 2.2 feature review for Feb 20th. Lets see if Vrurg has any 3.0 major release related feedback.
(08:49:46 AM) MichaelDaum: for 3.0 I'd like to restructire the skin way more ... i.e. use sass
(08:49:54 AM) gac410: vrurg: ...
(08:50:03 AM) gac410: MichaelDaum: y that would be good.
(08:50:55 AM) gac410: jomo ... looks like vrurg is sleeping .. or in a meeting.
(08:51:11 AM) jomo: okay, i just listening... ;)
(08:55:11 AM) gac410: Anyone else ??? I think we are in pretty good shape. Remember our 2.2 plan is Feature Freeze on 17 April. So our next meeting is to review the FeatureProposals and ReleasePlan and make decisions on 2.2 content.
(08:55:36 AM) gac410: That gives everyone 2 months to get their proposals ready to merge into master.
(08:55:42 AM) cdot: MichaelDaum: did you consider building a skin in JS?
(08:56:36 AM) cdot: you do a lot of that in NatSkin already, I know. But the server-side .tml's are still quite heavy.
(08:56:40 AM) cdot: .tmpl's
(08:57:04 AM) ***gac410 wonders about sites that do that. I assume that's the sites .. worst of which ... give you a blank page when you visit, until you pick through 50 blocked js sites and figure which one to enable to get a viewable page
(08:57:27 AM) cdot: y, it happens.... especially when certificates are lost or not renewed
(08:57:50 AM) cdot: chrome had a big problem with symantec certificates a while ago.
(08:57:51 AM) MichaelDaum: I once worked on AngularSkin/Plugin
(08:57:58 AM) MichaelDaum: ... using angular-js 1.x
(08:58:04 AM) cdot: and...?
(08:58:13 AM) MichaelDaum: and then things changed: angular-2 arrived
(08:58:19 AM) gac410: When I visit a site that provides a blank screen and a gazillion scripts blocked by noscript, I usually just find an alternate source and ignore that site.
(08:58:23 AM) cdot: ah, yes. Moving target :-(
(08:59:22 AM) MichaelDaum: it worked quite fine actually: (1) first view rendered by the server (2) all subsequent navigation fetches js from the backend and patches changes in to the page
(08:59:34 AM) MichaelDaum: so it is nice to seo and non javascripters
(08:59:49 AM) gac410: Y, I was quite impressed with your Angular test on your md site
(08:59:53 AM) MichaelDaum: yet still function as a single page app on any subsequent click
(08:59:58 AM) cdot: personally I find JS is easy to code, but it can be a nightmare to debug. But that's the case for FW templates, too.
(09:01:04 AM) MichaelDaum: actually I was not even using half of what angular could do: I abused it more to still get rendered html fragment from the backend
(09:01:10 AM) cdot: I do like the fact that making interfaces adaptable to client resources is much easier with JS.
(09:01:24 AM) cdot: e.g. mobile and tablet
(09:01:44 AM) gac410: We also talked of moving all foswiki html generation from code to the templates. but that fell by the wayside
(09:01:50 AM) MichaelDaum: the times of angular are over ... imho
(09:01:54 AM) MichaelDaum: new kid is Vue.js
(09:02:14 AM) cdot: always a new(er) kid
(09:02:49 AM) ***cdot has lost count of the number of JS frameworks that have been and gone
(09:03:08 AM) MichaelDaum: the good thing about Vue.js is that you can gradually move into their infrastructure. whereas react and angular is more of an all or nothing experience.
(09:04:01 AM) gac410: Interesting discussion here: https://www.quora.com/Which-should-I-learn-Mithril-Vue-or-Angular
(09:04:03 AM) MichaelDaum: angular js is sort of out for another reason too: to unfold its full merits you better code in TypeScript
(09:04:28 AM) MichaelDaum: WAY too much yadda for my taste
(09:05:04 AM) jomo: https://bootstrap-vue.github.io ?
(09:05:37 AM) MichaelDaum: nother nice UI kid is https://josephuspaye.github.io/Keen-UI/
(09:08:11 AM) gac410: For 3.0, I think we are going to face some very difficult decisions. Do we go forward with vrurg's rewrite, in which case we have a LOT of work ahead in extension rewrites, etc.
(09:08:31 AM) gac410: He has the mainline foswiki working, but a lot of work remains.
(09:09:25 AM) gac410: If we go ahead with the 3.0 rewrite, then that probably says we hold off on other big features. Can't let 3.0 become another "1.2 kitchen sink" release where everything gets pushed out into it.
(09:09:37 AM) vrurg: Hi, I forgot about the meeting today.
(09:09:44 AM) gac410: Ah ha... Hi vrurg
(09:10:09 AM) gac410: jomo is here and was asking on how you were making out.
(09:10:17 AM) jomo: hi vrurg :)
(09:10:55 AM) vrurg: Last few weeks are terrible. A lot of problems, almost no time for the project. :(
(09:11:29 AM) gac410: That's life I guess. We've all been there.
(09:12:39 AM) vrurg: Total upgrade of FreeBSD servers isn't just life, it's a deliberate decition on my side. With long-lasting consequences.
(09:12:46 AM) gac410: Hope things improve for you for sure.
(09:13:35 AM) gac410: :( Unfortunately servers do need the occasional upgrade. Whenever I face that with my gentoo box, my heart is in my mouth for the whole process.
(09:13:42 AM) vrurg: Otherwise I consider rewrite of Config is moving on into right direction. Got a working parser for the current spec format and working on architectural matters.
(09:14:09 AM) gac410: cool
(09:14:56 AM) gac410: Well don't let the pressures burn you out. You've made great progress in "hero development" so take time to breathe.
(09:15:32 AM) vrurg: And as I was saying it once, as soon as new specs are in place that would be the time to go on with 3.0. Though at this point that would be definitely the whole community to step in. Because there is really a lot of issues I won't manage to handle.
(09:15:51 AM) gac410: Y. It's going to shake us up for sure.
(09:16:35 AM) gac410: I think we need to also do a campaign sometime this spring to try to pull in some more developers / translators / etc.
(09:16:37 AM) vrurg: cdot: I would need your help with Configure code later.
(09:17:37 AM) vrurg: gac410: There gonna be a Perl conference later this year. In June, if memory serves me right.
(09:17:43 AM) gac410: We have our annual meeting coming up in April IIRC. So maybe that's the time to plan on that.
(09:18:47 AM) vrurg: If I get my part done in time to get registered with a speech I might think of promoting Foswiki this way.
(09:20:02 AM) gac410: That would be cool. Where is the conference.
(09:21:46 AM) vrurg: Tried to find out but the official site has no information yet. That's strange because I saw something about a east coast state.
(09:22:11 AM) vrurg: Will find out later. Perhaps they're still planning and the info I had was preliminary.
(09:23:18 AM) vrurg: http://www.perlconference.us/tpc-2017-dc/
(09:23:24 AM) vrurg: Washington, DC
(09:28:09 AM) gac410: Okay everyone. Anything else for today's release meeting?
(09:29:10 AM) gac410: Otherwise ... Thanks for the participation ... See you all in 2 weeks, and ready to review the pending 2.2 proposals Lets get a feature release on the front burner!
(09:30:06 AM) gac410: and in the meantime Test Test Test ... Release Candidate build on Wednesday and release on Friday if all goes well. Michael, be ready to blog and tweet etc. :D
(09:31:14 AM) gac410: If anyone can try to reproduce and verify the fix for https://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item13785 - extension installer ... please give it a go. Thanks.
(09:32:58 AM) gac410: I guess "That's a wrap" Thanks everyone
(09:35:06 AM) jomo: thanx, cu
(09:35:15 AM) gac410: cu jomo
(09:35:23 AM) gac410: Thanks for stopping in
(09:35:25 AM) jomo left the room (quit: Quit: jomo).
(09:35:39 AM) JulianLevens: thanks
(09:36:04 AM) gac410: Time for breakfast and a cuppa coffee. cu guys. I'll be around though.
(09:38:26 AM) vrurg: thanx!
(09:42:48 AM) cdot: vrurg: happy to help with configure - at least the bits I understand!
(09:44:18 AM) vrurg: Let's move to the main channel, ok?
(09:44:19 AM) JulianLevens left the room (quit: Read error: Connection reset by peer).
(10:28:48 AM) MichaelDaum: sorry got distracted ...
(10:29:06 AM) MichaelDaum: gac410, yes. Lets blog n tweet n facebook it
(10:31:48 AM) MichaelDaum: I'll find some (in)appropriate images ... as always :)
(10:58:16 AM) gac410: ;)